Talking About The Indies
Posted by Douglas Nunnally
on 02/15/2006
Originally posted on December 15, 2005.
Scott Stover: Welcome everybody to this week's TWV Wrestling Roundtable. I realize we have been away for the last couple of weeks but we are set to go this week with a real interesting topic. I think all of us will be able to learn something because this week we will be talking about the Indies. With us this week are Douglas Nunnally, Morpheus, Matt Green, Phil Snyder, and of course, yours truly, Scott Stover. And with this, we'll just throw it out there and see what happens.
Phil Snyder: Well, I'm about 18 hours removed from CZW's Cage of Death 6 and I am still pretty much speechless. Being there live and watching the action live in no way compares to buying the DVD. It was absolutely incredible especially the main events. I mean, being 10 feet from the ring in second row seats is just amazing. The former ECW Arena was so loud the whole night, it was unbelievable. That's what I love about Indy wrestling.
Matt Green: I think the biggest attraction to Indy wrestling is the freedom to be anything the WWE is not unless you happen to be a promotion owned by a Panda company. Independents at the end of the day are all now perceived clones of ECW whether they choose to be or not. People’s perception of ECW was a renegade promotion that did a bunch of crazy stuff and hated the mainstream companies. That is basically every independent in the Americas. All trying to be different, but at the end of the day just adjusted models of the original basis ECW was built upon: being different to mainstream pro wrestling.
Douglas Nunnally: I have to disagree as Indies to me just try to offer everything to the fans. Look at ROH. Look at IWA-MS. I just think that the fact that they aren't going mainstream, people lump them in with ECW. To be honest, the only promotion that comes close to ECW would be ROH since both have a cult like following. Granted, ECW's was way more, but ROH is getting there. With that said, the Indies are a wonderful thing and you can find matches on there that beat the crap out of WWE and TNA matches. The only problem is so-called "wrestling fans" don't give a crap if you aren't on TV so no one goes and many promotions die after a year.
Morpheus: Well, admittedly until recently I have only been a WWF/E fan, never having watched anything outside that promotion. I was turned on to TNA at the beginning of November, and since then I have franticly searched for anything I can get my grubby little mitts on. I have purchased some ECW, FMW, CZW, ROH, MLW, and OVW DVDs, and I have to say that a lot of what these smaller promotions offer is far better from a wrestling standpoint than the so called "Major League" wrestling promotions. I feel a big part of that, though, may have to do with the risks these guys take, and the insurance policies they need while under contract. I still love the WWE, but now I have a lot broader of a spectrum of choices, and I love every minute of it.
Matt Green: Going back to what Doug said, their freedom is offering something different. ECW was all about offering something different at the beginning. All these promotions with the exception of TNA have cult like followings whether it be ROH who was trying to bring the athleticism side back to wrestling or CZW which whatever way you look at it was just trying to be a new ECW, but going to ridiculous lengths. IWA MS was originally just bringing the ECW style to the mid south and mid western parts of America and Ian Rotten openly claims that. Nowadays you have to be 'strong style' to be anything in the Indy business and if you don't take 100 head bumps a match you get a DUD rating. At the end of the day it all comes down to the freedom that the promotions have. That all stems from ECW, if there was no ECW it would of taken a hell of a lot longer for promotions like CZW, ROH, XPW to get their freedom. The independent wrestling business owes everything to Paul Heyman directing Shane Douglas to throw down the NWA belt in 1994 and giving independent wrestling a true freedom to do what they way to do.
Douglas Nunnally: I have done work for 3 promotions and from what Matt said about the strong style also applies to spot fests which is thanks to TNA. In Virginia, the board of wrestling and boxing has outlawed blood, crowd fights, excessive weapon fighting, and many other things. If you do one of those, you get a fine in the upwards of $2,000. People in VA do not realize this since WWE does all of those things when they come to VA. How? They pay their fines because they have the money too. If an Indy promotion did that, they would go bankrupt. So then people who come to the VA events expect to see everything like in WWE and TNA and the stuff doesn't even come close. No blading, few weapons, no huge brawls, and more are things the paying crowd gets and because it is not what they can see in other promotions, they don't go, and the Indy promotions get the shaft. There have been countless promotions fold in VA because of this and it only backs up Matt's point. All the Indies today offer somewhat of the general same so if you aren't able to do that or WWE or TNA, you are a dud. The wrestling is still top notch, but the standards are skewed.
Morpheus: I think that again is the unfortunate nature of the beast. The money factor makes a big difference in the long run, as in how much each fed can afford. Laws of economics tell you that the WWE should be able to do more simply because they have the capital to back up whatever they want to do. This does, as Doug said, end up shafting the smaller promotions in many cases, but again that comes with the territory. I think the best any fed can do is showcase what sets them apart from other feds, and highlight their strengths, rather than trying to mimic other federations, past or present.
Matt Green: Just picking up on Doug's point of commission rules it's a vicious circle because in the majority cases of commissions banning excessive violence that has been caused by independent promotions. For every good Indy you hear of you have 4 or 5 bad ones that don't use the venues properly, don't have properly trained wrestlers, and cut all the corners to taken the cost out of running shows and to make a fast buck from the marks. That is the main cause of the commission banning excessive violence: poor Indy promotions trying to make the quick buck where good Indy promotions already run. It's cost Ian Rotten, Jerry Lawler, and Jim Cornette money, all of whom have good promotions, but are screwed over by poorly run Indies. Then of course they have their freedom as much as any other Indies do.
Morpheus: I think that very succinctly summed up a big part of the problem in that realm. Instead of taking the time and effort to ensure quality, you end up with half-assed attempts at shock value that end up causing more harm than good, not only within the Indy fed in question, but also for other feds caught up in the backlash from it. It is definitely a vicious cycle, and one that has definitely put undue strain on the Indy market.
Scott Stover: Before we close out today, I want to throw a question out to everyone, something that will be of interest to Indy-impaired idiots like me. If you were to recommend to people one Independent to watch or maybe even one match or even to watch on tape, what would it be and why?
Douglas Nunnally: I am going to recommend one promotion and one match. The promotion is Ring of Honor. Why? Because they give the fans exactly what they want. Spot fest, brawls, technical wrestling, gimmick wrestling, et cetera. Everyone has their purpose there and the product is some of the best in a long time. The match, however, is from IWA-MS "An IWA-MS Fairytale" and it would be Delirious vs. Jimmy Jacobs for the Light Heavyweight title. This is just an excellent match with incredible comedy, wrestling, and a finish that is off the charts. Go check this match and Ring of Honor out now!
Phil Snyder: Well, I think anyone who knows me would know that I would recommend CZW to anyone because I have been to Ring of Honor events live and they don't compare to CZW live, to be completely honest. But there's a new promotion that CZW kind of brought into the spotlight from Canada called IWS (Internet Wrestling Syndicate) and EVERY time they have been on the CZW card, they have amazed the crowd. They just have a bunch of guys that have decent gimmicks, but are so creative in the ring; it makes you blink to make sure you weren't dreaming. The match I would recommend is the IWS 4-Way match from CZW's High Stakes on September 11, 2004. It was Sexxxy Eddy vs. Kevin Steen vs. El Generico vs. Excess 69. This match was 30 minutes of non stop action and was simply incredible. Four guys that had everything to prove to the fans didn't let anyone down. The false finishes were great, spots were great, and the finish was surprising. Awesome match.
Matt Green: Promotion: IWA MS. Easily the best all round in America in the past two years. ROH can claim to be if they want, but until they have a lot of swearing Memphis wrestlers on there, they aren't. The match is Tracy Smothers vs. Bull Pain from IWA's 6th Anniversary Show. No cool little back flips, no stupid head bumps, no "Oh My God!" chants, no back and forth Smothers and Pain chants. A pissed off Texan and a pissed off Tennessean. They brawled, they had the fans in raptures and ready to riot, Pain was spitting profanity laced promos and the fans were baying from his blood, Smothers was the awesome face and sold his ass off as well as some really cool "heelish" tactics behind the refs back which is something I don't understand isn't more widespread. Faces can cheat just make sure the ref don't see it, and when the heel does it make sure they do. Anywho, watch this match. It’s more entertainment than watching a bunch of flipping Canadians.
Morpheus: Well, as far as choosing which Indy fed would be the best, I have to agree with Doug and go with ROH, but I have never been to a live event, so I couldn't give a fair assessment on that. Choosing a great match to recommend is a little more difficult, but if I had to choose one, I would go with H vs. Hiyabusa II from FMW's Judgment Day 1999. Shawn Michaels was the referee, and both men put on an awesome match. Great introduction to the FMW style of wrestling, which commonly involves matches with more adjectives than are in the common fourth grader's vocabulary.
Scott Stover: Well I most certainly learned something today and I hope you did too. That does it for this week's Wrestling Roundtable and I would like to thank our great panel for once again coming and enlightening us with a lot of good information. If you want to be a guest on the roundtable or suggest a topic for a future roundtable, visit TWV Asylum and look for the Roundtable board. Until next week, you know what to do guys!
Phil Snyder: Leave?
Morpheus: No I don't.
Scott Stover: No, say goodbye!
Phil Snyder: Oh! Goodbye.
Matt Green: Goodnight everybody.
Douglas Nunnally: Night!
Morpheus: Oh! Uh, Peace out y'all! I'll catch ya on the flip side.
Matt Green: And keep hating flipping Canadians.
Phil Snyder: Except the IWS guys.
Matt Green: Especially the IWS guys.
Phil Snyder: Hate Teddy Hart all you want, but come on, how can you hate El Generico?
Morpheus: Can we hate Bret Hart too?
Matt Green: And yes, very much Teddy Hart!
Douglas Nunnally: And so it begins.
Scott Stover: Oh help me lord, what have we gotten ourselves into. Good night all!
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