Shirley Doe
Posted by Daniel Johnson
on 01/18/2007
Interviewer's Note:
Shirley Doe is an independent wrestler, who has worked for various promotions since debuting in 1995. Among his many accomplishments have been holding the International Wrestling Cartel World Heavyweight title twice, acting as the head teacher at the Coalition of Competition wrestling school and recently creating his own comic book. Note that this interview took place on December 26, 2006 and any references made to recent events should be taken from that perspective. Special thanks to Shirley Doe for allowing me the time to conduct this interview.
Daniel Johnson: So first off, thank you very much for taking part in the interview.
Shirley Doe: Yeah, no problem.
Daniel Johnson: The first question I had was before becoming a wrestler yourself as a fan was there any one particular wrestler that stood out to you more than any other as being like inspirational?
Shirley Doe: A couple, yeah. I grew up watching. The only wrestling I got at first was like the stuff that the Fed put on, WOR. Then I started watching probably in '76 or '77 so the first guy I really noticed was probably Don Muraco and then after that Dynamite Kid.
Daniel Johnson: As a veteran of wrestling's independent scene since the 1990s, how do you feel wrestling's independent scene has changed since you first joined it?
Shirley Doe: It’s a lot easier to get in now. You had to basically know people and it was almost like a fraternity and I’m sure it was even more like that before I started. You had to kind of know someone to get trained and you were usually a year or two years before you even got in the ring and now it’s a lot different. The other thing too is size is completely different, when I broke in I was the smallest guy in the area and now I’m one of the bigger guys, which is kind of weird.
Daniel Johnson: What memories do you have of your very first match, which was against Benson Lee on August 22, 1995?
Shirley Doe: Let’s see [Laughs] well…do you want the…oh man I’m trying to think of a good way to say it. The worst part about it was before the match, I was really nervous and there were no stalls in the bathroom. So I had to basically shit in front of everybody. I don’t know if you want to put that in your interview [Laughs]. So I was…basically, I had to keep going to the bathroom because I was so nervous. So you can imagine it being your first match and here’s Dan Severn, here’s Cactus Jack and here you are having to not only wrestle in front of them, but try and go to the bathroom in the middle of the same room as them. The other thing was like the first spot, a referee was in the way and I didn’t know just to go through the referee, no one had ever taught me that. So I danced around the referee and everybody kept laughing, so I’m like, “great.” The whole rest of the match, I just kept trying to kill myself with everything I did and put everything into it and try to make up for that one thing in the beginning. But, so whenever I teach people now it’s like, “just take out referees” [Laughs] so you don’t run into the same problems I had.
Daniel Johnson: How was having one of the wrestlers who trained you, Benson Lee, as your first opponent? Did that make it easier at all?
Shirley Doe: On some levels, yeah it does. On other levels it’s kind of like you know you’re trying harder to impress somebody because you know how much effort they put into you, but yeah I mean he was a good first opponent, like he wasn’t worried about looking great. He was willing to work with me and let me look as good as I was going to look as well.
Daniel Johnson: How do you feel your wrestling skills have progressed since this first match?
Shirley Doe: I don’t wrestle that much anymore. I brawl a lot. So I probably actually wrestled a lot more in my first couple of matches like hold-wise, but I’m not really well known for actually doing a ton of wrestling within matches. So probably, I’m just more comfortable being myself now.
Daniel Johnson: In terms of popularity and finances 1995 was one of the worst years in recent history for mainstream American wrestling. What was your opinion of mainstream wrestling at the time you first began on the independent scene?
Shirley Doe: You know I’ve never really liked — after discovering Japanese wrestling and after like the NWA was bought and changed into WCW — I’ve really never had a big love for American wrestling. So yeah, I kind of had to keep notice of it to know what was going on so I wasn’t like stealing somebody’s finisher, but mostly I paid a lot more attention to Japanese wrestling or Mexican wrestling than American wrestling.
Daniel Johnson: Since 2001, you have regularly competed with IWC, how did you first begin a working relationship first with them?
Shirley Doe: Well, I previously worked with the owner, Norm, in Steel City and then we were all working for a smaller group in Pittsburgh that had split into two groups. There was a major problem with their building and their license so they started, IWC started without Norm. Norm wasn’t the owner at the time, another wrestler was and I didn’t work like the first three shows because I was like, “it’s just another group,” because at that time there was probably eight to ten groups in Pittsburgh and we were working a lot more on the road. We were working in Dayton and Ohio and Cleveland and stuff a lot more. So after like the third or forth show, we went to one like — and this is like a group of guys that I usually travel with — and we seemed to like what was going on there and just gradually just kept working there. Once Norm came along, it got a lot easier to actually have the shows make sense. A lot of the shows before that were just kind of thrown together, which was no one’s fault. It was just a crazy, chaotic time. I hate working shows where matches aren’t even announced beforehand and things are really random. I’d rather have a good clue of what’s going on and you know storylines build from month to month and that’s kind of what’s going on now so I’m relatively comfortable there right now.
Daniel Johnson: Who have been some of your favorite opponents thus far in your IWC tenure?
Shirley Doe: Oh man, there’s a lot. Feuds, I liked working with Balls Mahoney because I learned a lot from those, Tracy Smothers because I learned even more. From the IWC guys that might not get national press: HENTAI and I had a really fun feud and we’ve been teaming for a while now, but we have good, fond memories of working each other in our feud because it was nice to work someone, who you’re going to be able to really lay into and not worry afterwards if they, or even worse, their significant other is going to be upset. So that was fun. I had a really good time with Denny Gregory last year and had fun teaming with Abyss. I guess the plan was for us to feud coming into this year, but he’s with the belt and everything in the NWA and his price is going up, that’s not going to happen. I worked him once and it was a lot of fun so you can throw him in.
Daniel Johnson: On the IWC promotion’s official website, iwcwrestling.com, it mentions that you defended the IWC Heavyweight title in Japan, making it an official world title, how important do you feel it is that a promotion’s top belt be officially recognized as a world title?
Shirley Doe: I think it’s really important. I think a lot of people just say, “Oh it’s a world title,” and you know it only gets defended in one city and you know or two cities and I think it really just, I think it was really nice. I’m a big fan of the old PWI days where things had to be verified and all this stupid stuff. And it was just kind of cool. Especially because I got to be the person to take the belt to Japan, which was like a dream and be over there and work and use the title and I actually had a good match with it. I think it’s a really important thing.
Daniel Johnson: Prior to your tour of the country how did you first learn about the wrestling scene in Japan?
Shirley Doe: I saw Dynamite work Tiger Mask here in WWF. I was just like, “wow!” I had never seen — like at the time Jimmy Snuka was you know considered a big high flyer and seeing this complete different style. You know because Tiger Mask, the first Tiger Mask, Sayama did such a weird mix of blending British style and Lucha and Japanese style and shoot style into one thing. So seeing that when you’re like ten years old is kind of mind-blowing, so I’ve been kind of — after that I’ve been into it ever since.
Daniel Johnson: In your Japan diaries you briefly compliment Curry Man and “American Dragon” Bryan Danielson. Recently Bryan Danielson lost the Ring of Honor World Heavyweight title, have you ever thought about competing for Ring of Honor?
Shirley Doe: No, I don’t think I’d fit in at all there. I just think that they’re more like great wrestlers to me and less about like emotion and I’m not a great wrestler per se, but I’m really good about getting people into matches and getting people mad at me and that’s what I think is missing in wrestling. So I’m happy to do what I do for IWC. I kind of like being there. I would see me being a horrible fit for ROH.
Daniel Johnson: On the opposite side of strict technical wrestling, you have participated in many gimmick matches such as a table match, a casket match and even a barbed wire light tube match. Out of all the types of gimmick matches there are, which is your personal favorite?
Shirley Doe: I hate every one of them [Laughs]. It’s hard because like each one, the way I look at wrestling is that each gimmick match has its own like weird way of working. I hate coffin matches because of — you kind of have to — like all of wrestling is you know kind of based around the near falls. You know what I mean? There’s no near falls in a coffin match. So you kind of have to reinvent the way that you work — I just did one last Saturday, it was my second — The first one with Abyss was weird because it was the first time we ever wrestled each other. We never even met each other and it was like, “You guys are going to do a coffin and thumbtacks match!” and we’re like “okay,” You know (Laughs) and like we were getting paid pretty well, but it was just stupid because you kind of need some natural heat between each other to go into a match like that. This is a really long answer to a short question, sorry. The latest one, I had I wrestled with him five times, so the coffin match made a little more sense. I kind of like types of deathmatches or any matches that will let me brawl all over the place. I love taking the match out of the ring and the visual of taking moves onto things. Like I just watched one IWC match on DVD that I hadn’t seen, where they had a piledriver onto bleachers headfirst and its like, “Wow, that’s a really cool visual,” you know what I mean? It looks a lot more dangerous. So I think that’s kind of cool, but really as long as I can find a way to make the psychology of the match make sense and like try to figure out and try to give the fans something interesting, instead of it just being, like a lot of the time when you see gimmick matches they turn into just like, “Okay I’m going to bleed now, I’m going to bleed now” and you know “I’m going to hit you alright and the other guy’s going to hit me with this.” The best analogy I ever heard was like that the whole match itself should be, the gimmick of the match should be the flavor of the match, not the overall tone of the match. I think Tracy told me that. I have a bad memory from concussions so you can credit him though I’m sure he wouldn’t mind.
Daniel Johnson: One of your accomplishments in wrestling is the fact that you are the longest reigning IWC Heavyweight Champion ever, what are some of your fonder memories of this title reign?
Shirley Doe: Okay, that’s cool. Like, I think, I think it’s really cool to me whenever a company gives you their main title and says, “Run with it.” It’s kind of, it’s a major cool thing for them to do to you, but it’s also a lot of pressure. To me, I put a lot of pressure on myself. Like I get sick about matches, before they happen, because like it’s not going to be…like you know, “I’m never going to top that last match” or “I’m not going to have a good match” and up until my music plays I really am not sure how good of a match I’m going to have and I’m really not sure I’m going to be able to do it and it’s like an irrational fear, but I think if you ever get rid of, if you ever think, “Well I can do anything” you just become conceded. So, it was like the pressures amplified even more being the champ and it was kind of hard because I was working as a baby at the time. So it was really against my nature, but once I turned heel with the belt and I did stuff with Denny Gregory, who really is a great babyface, so we had a lot of fun together. We worked, it was great because I’m a big fan and wrestling now, the big thing is you can see that guys kind of, have gone over their match two hundred, three hundred times and it’s just nice to have someone that’s professional enough that I can go out and we can just work and not talk a lot, and not even really talk before or after the match, just do our thing. That was cool. I really had a good time in Japan, doing interviews with the belt and you know I did like a twenty-five minute match in Japan, which was kind of cool and losing it was good to because it was like, “Wow, now the pressures off me.” “One and two,” the crowd really got into it and you know the whole thing made sense so...again, another really long answer to a short question [Laughs].
Daniel Johnson: That’s alright. Overall how important do you think lengthy title reigns are in adding to a championship’s value?
Shirley Doe: I think they’re really important because before me we had guys that would just have it from show to show and I think it really like lets you get behind guys, whether he’s popular or not popular. One of the things I’ve noticed about Ring of Honor, I think the thing that made me take notice of them was Joe’s reign and I think that was really cool that he had it so long and working with such a variety of people. I think that, you know I’m again coming on wrestling from a really old school perspective. Like Dory Funk is one of the guys that helped train me, and I think he held the NWA belt for four or five years and I can’t imagine having it that long and having the schedule that he had. Because he said you know it’s every night you’re in a different town and you don’t even know if you’re working or if they’re going to try to take advantage of you in the ring and well again, I’m a big fan of title reigns going a while and a big fan of feuds going a lot to and really making the stories drag out, but not in a bad way, in a good way.
Daniel Johnson: What was it like to wrestle against Steve Corino for the IWC title?
Shirley Doe: It was easy. Not easy in the ring, it was hard in the ring, but you know it was kind of like…I was nervous before it started and then we basically just went out and went to town. It was a lot of fun. I’d really like to wrestle him again because I learned a lot from the match. The only bad part is, we followed AJ Styles and Samoa Joe working each other so it was like, okay no one wants to see us go twenty-five minutes and just throw punches and I can’t do a lot of stuff those guys did, but I think it’s always good to work with someone who’s a veteran like that and Steve’s been to Japan more times than anybody in modern, you know our time outside of maybe…man I don’t know how many guys have been over to Japan that are not him in the past 5 years. I’ll just say him from my little bit of experience.
Daniel Johnson: On June 9, 2006 your reign as IWC World Heavyweight Champion finally came to an end at the hands of Dennis Gregory. What is your opinion of the way that your title run ended? Do you feel that any particular aspects of your program with Gregory made the title change more or less effective?
Shirley Doe: I would have liked to have a little more buildup. Well we had a lot of buildup. Really you know what like my whole philosophy over the last year has been? Instead of worrying about how things like ended up like just say, “Well you know what? It’s over and done with, like what can we learn from it?” and the truth is there wasn’t a better guy that I could have lost to. The only downside of it was he was leaving for Afghanistan and he had just come back from Iraq right before he started feuding with me and he got called right back into the service after eight months. So it would have been nice for him to, you know for us to work again with him as the champ and me as the challenger and do a whole new feud, but we couldn’t do it because of reality intruding into wrestling.
Daniel Johnson: In 2002 you wrestled against Sterling James Keenan at an IWC event entitled December to Dismember. This year the reformed ECW put on a show also entitled December to Dismember, what was your opinion of that show?
Shirley Doe: I didn’t watch it. The only stuff I’ve watched of ECW is, I’ve watched the TV show a couple of times because I have a lot of friends there and generally I get mad about halfway through it and I’m like, “You know, I’m not going to watch it.” It’s just hard for me to watch. Because especially, I shouldn’t say, like I didn’t…I said before that I didn’t watch a lot of American wrestling, but I did go, like Norm and a few other wrestlers…we used to drive from Pittsburgh to Philly, which is about four hours for every ECW show so I have like a major affinity for ECW and to see kind of what it is now, I‘d just rather it stay dead and you know not come back. Because it was really — to be there in the building for — I was there for a lot of the bigger things that happened you know sitting there watching it as a fan and then like now that I know what I know about wrestling now on the business end of it, being forced to watch it, it’s hard to watch.
Daniel Johnson: Going back to ECW, like IWC it’s also based out of Pennsylvania. Did you ever have any interest or try to participate in any ECW events when the original incarnation of it was around?
Shirley Doe: Yeah, I don’t think so. It’s funny because I talked to a few people about it before and its like literally if like if in another two or three years I might have been halfway decent enough to get into there and it would have been kind of cool to get into there and see what is happening. I guess that may be conceited somewhat. The hard part for me in wrestling is that I have a fulltime job and that I’m a writer for a major ad agency in Pittsburgh. So it’s kind of hard for, to ever take any money from wrestling. Do you know what I mean? Like get to the level where it’s like, “Well we’ll give you twenty-five thousand a year or we’ll give you forty thousand a year to start” and I’m like I already make twice that you know and I support my family and stuff on my real job. So to me it’s kind of like if anybody ever offered me a great deal — but I’m not good enough to ever get a great deal — I’m pretty comfortable in wrestling where I am at now. Where I’m like pretty high up in the company I work for, work for a few Indy’s, go to Japan twice a year, I mean that’s kind of as busy as it’s probably going to get for me. It would have been cool. I mean I’ve got to wrestle almost everybody from ECW multiple times. Like Balls, Sandman, Dreamer, everybody except Sabu so a pretty good run of guys from there, from the mainstay ECW guys.
Daniel Johnson: In past months you have been involved with the Unholy Alliance, which has included among its members yourself, Sebastian Dark, HENTAI, Jimmy Vegas, Dean Radford and Abyss. How did the idea of you first joining the Unholy Alliance come about?
Shirley Doe: Well, we had done the whole thing with Sebastian and HENTAI turning on the company and I don’t know I was just getting kind of sick being a face. To tell you the truth, it’s really hard especially as the champ and my natural strengths are to be you know a brawler and working and you know throw people around the ring. You know, just be a general bastard. So it just seems like a good fit and a good thing to do at the time and it all kind of clicked. So you know, simple.
Daniel Johnson: How has it been to work with Abyss?
Shirley Doe: Oh, it was awesome. Of all the guys that have come in…it’s weird because in wrestling you kind of have your local guys, your local guys that travel kind of like around there, and then like your national guys. Of all like the local guys and local guys that travel, like Abyss is probably the nicest and easiest to work with guy that ever came in. Him, and probably Sandman because they like really wanted to work with us and we all came away with more experience. I think Low Ki’s up there to, just when you come in there wrestling those guys instead of it just being like a match, you end up like learning something, which is what it should always be about when you’re wrestling somebody at a higher level than you. Abyss and I got to wrestle once and I would like to wrestle him a million more times. Unfortunately, you know money and reality is holding it back now.
Daniel Johnson: Which do you prefer: wrestling against Abyss as an opponent or having him as an ally?
Shirley Doe: I don’t know, as I only wrestled him once. He’s really great to have as an ally, because you know. The funny thing about Abyss is when you get out there with the lights and the smoke and you see him come out with the mask and the chain and you’re like, “shit, I can’t believe I’m going to fight this guy now.” So I’d like to have him on my side.
Daniel Johnson: Regarding music, in the past you have mentioned some bands you like include Iron Maiden, Queens of the Stone Age and Depeche Mode, how important do you think a wrestler’s entrance music is in drawing a response from the audience?
Shirley Doe: It’s totally important. Like, there are a lot of guys. I kind of change my music every once in a while, but I’m kind of sticking with what I have now and like I think its really important to have music not just for the fans to let them know who you are, but also to get yourself like fired up about a match. I was just thinking about my last match I wouldn’t have been as into my last match if it wasn’t for my music. So as soon as I heard it and I was in the back and I just started warming up to it, like, it totally pumps you up. That’s what it should be like. That’s why I’m a big fan, was another reason why I was a big fan of ECW too. Because I hated the WWE kind of like created music because a lot of its music that, like the WCW music, like you’ve heard it before I’m sure on a million shows it was just library music and you know was like copyright free music. Like I think when you have your own music even if it’s a song that everybody knows, like it’s just awesome. Like it’s a great feeling when it hits and it’s that loud. You know, I can’t really describe it.
Daniel Johnson: How did you choose your current theme?
Shirley Doe: I’m coming out to “Hanzel and Gretyl” now by SS Deathstar Supergalactik and I’ve seen them like a bunch of times in concert and no one really knows who they are yet, but it’s just really loud and it sounds like you’re getting hit in the face in the beginning of it, like there’s this straight bass over and over again. Like boom, boom, boom, and like to me like music should only be about three things: sex, drugs or Satan. It has all three of those things in the song, so it’s the perfect song. But I hated — we were on TV for a while — we were trying to get some national cable deal right when IWC first started and they had picked again some copyright free music for us. And the music they picked for me was just horrible. It was just like generic heavy metal like (Laughs) like Winger or something. Because they thought that’s what it should be like and was I’m like, “ah, it’s horrible.” So I’m very happy with what I have now and it gets me into the matches a lot.
Daniel Johnson: Getting back to wrestling titles, in addition to holding the IWC Heavyweight Championship, you have also held the IWC High Stakes Championships on two separate occasions. How were your reigns as IWC High Stakes champion different from your heavyweight title reigns?
Shirley Doe: High Stakes, I got hurt a lot more because every match was some kind of gimmick match, every single time. So you know you kind of have to after you’ve had ten of those or twelve of those like you start to run out, “what am I going to do next?” I remember I had a hockey stick match one time and I’m getting two hockey sticks, legit broken over my head, right on my forehead. Hockey sticks, especially graphite ones are pretty hard. And I’m like, “You know I really don’t think I like this anymore, I’d like to wrestle more.” But I mean it was fun, because like it kind of gave me an out every time to get heat, like I could cheat. Like one match was like I had to get a five-count and everyone else had to get a three-count on me, just stupid stuff like that. I mean it was fun and it was a challenge. I kind of liked the heavyweight title reign a lot more just because it was a little more traditional.
Daniel Johnson: Were there any similarities between your IWC Heavyweight title reign and your IWC High Stakes Championship reign?
Shirley Doe: No, not really, just different points of time. I think by the time I got the heavyweight belt I was a much better wrestler. Not better like as in able to wrestle better, I should say, but smarter in timing. Like to me like wrestling is all about — you could know a million moves and I really don’t care — like it’s all about timing and being in the right place and drawing like out people’s emotions. And I was in a much better place, especially like I’d say the last six months of my title reign I was really happy with everything. I felt like everything was going pretty well.
Daniel Johnson: Balls Mahoney, who you have spoken of highly in the past, who worked with you in the IWC and defeated you, one occasion for the IWC Heavyweight Championship is currently in the reformed ECW. What is your opinion of his role in the reformed ECW thus far?
Shirley Doe: I have to drink with him at some point in the future, so I shouldn’t be honest [Laughs]. No, just kidding. You know, he has a job, so I’m happy that he’s making money. The thing that’s funny is the guys in ECW like that, the WWE would probably say have bad looks or aren’t in WWE style are the guys that end up getting over the best. I mean Balls and Sandman just walk out and people get into them. So I’m just happy that people get a chance to see them and that they’re making some money.
Daniel Johnson: In addition to IWC you have also worked for several other promotions such as Mega Championship Wrestling and Violent Championship Wrestling. What are the benefits of working for more than one independent promotion?
Shirley Doe: You always have options. So if you’re like, “I really don’t feel like working here anymore,” you can say, “Well I’m going to be working you know every other weekend” so it’s nice. I just worked for MCW last weekend. It also reminds you, I’m not speaking about any one promotion here so nobody gets mad when they read it, but a lot of times when you work smaller promotions it kind of reminds you, “Hey wow it’s really cool that you know IWC draws 500 people a show, 600 people a show,” and you know how organized the locker room is when you go to other shows and people are writing with a marker on a piece of paper. You know, here’s the matches, like, “okay great, nobody planned anything out.” So it’s kind of nice to get a little bit of this and a little bit of that. Its fun to travel too, I mean you get to see all sorts of small cities [Laughs] its really not that great. It’s a point, the thing about wrestling is I always think that people always think, “Oh it’s so romantic you know you guys get to travel all the time.” But when everybody else is out at bars at 2:00 is the morning on a Saturday, you know we’re in our car, we don’t even know where we’re at and we have four more hours to get home. It’s not that romantic.
Daniel Johnson: Are there any drawbacks to working for multiple promotions, aside from the traveling?
Shirley Doe: I work like about 65 hours in a short week. So to work that much, plus work out every day, plus teach all the young guys in IWC and then you know try to be married and tie it all together its kind of hard. That’s probably the downside I would say.
Daniel Johnson: In your first title match of the year you defended the IWC Heavyweight title against Austin Aries. What most stands from the match for you and how do you feel the encounter compares to the other title matches you've had this year?
Shirley Doe: I think it was cool. We basically kind of got thrown together because I was supposed to work AJ that night, but I had a lot of fun working Austin Aries. It was cool. I'd like to actually have some more time and you know work him a couple of times and have fun, but it was still cool.
Daniel Johnson: One of the individuals you have mentioned in the past as being one of your favorite tag partners is Chris Hero. How do you feel that your wrestling styles compliment one another?
Shirley Doe: He’s my little brother, so it was really easy teaming with him. So, he’s really easy to team with. We’re two big goofy idiots [Laughs]. I think Chris and I have always gelled since day one and yeah I’m really happy for how well he’s doing.
Daniel Johnson: One of the events that Chris Hero participated in, in IWC was the Super Indy Tournament, though you have participated at the events , you’ve never actually like been in an official tournament match. Would you like to be in any official tournament matches in future tournaments?
Shirley Doe: I don’t really think I’m the kind of style that people are looking for in Super Indy. Just because like a lot of it, you know and you look at the guys in there like AJ and Chris Daniels and Hero and Punk, HENTAI you know Jerry Lynn. I mean I’m just going into a list of guys that to me are like you know, “wow,” like amazing wrestlers, you know. And I’m just kind of like you know a good brawler and you know I can take a good punch, but I really don’t think anyone would be wanting to see me throwing out all the Lucha that I know, which I do know some. I mean I started in Lucha you know before American wrestling, but I don’t know, it’s just not really for me. I think it’d be a joke if I was in a Super Indy tournament.
Daniel Johnson: Regarding Lucha Libre, what were some of your favorite moments as a fan of watching Lucha Libre?
Shirley Doe: I broke in right at the time that AAA kind of exploded. So I was really into the whole Gringos Locos thing like with Eddie and Art Barr and Konnan.
Daniel Johnson: Are there any Lucha Libre stars today that you’d like to work with?
Shirley Doe: Yeah, I just, I really don’t get to watch as much of it as I used to. I watch a lot of the Japanese Lucha more than anything now. You know like Michinoku or like Dragon Gate and stuff like that, which is kind of like a weird mix of stuff. But yeah like just really anybody, I got to meet La Parka and a few of the other guys on the MLW show and I think that was pretty cool and I’d like to wrestle you know whichever one of the nineteen-hundred La Parkas or Gronda [Laughs].
Daniel Johnson: How did you first get involved in the training school, the Coalition of Competition and what part do you play in the school?
Shirley Doe: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m the head teacher and I think this is how all this stuff happened, I guess. We just had so many kids, young kids coming up and wanting to learn and for years I just never really wanted to train anybody because I was like I never really thought I had anything really to teach, but it actually has gone pretty well. We’ve had a lot of real success with our students and you know also it helps me a lot just to remember a lot of the basic stuff that I usually forget to do with matches. So I’ve really been enjoying teaching. I’m really proud. You know I’ve had a lot of standout students. They’ve done me proud. I’d say the success of the school has more to do with the students than with me.
Daniel Johnson: Regarding the teaching method do you teach one specific style or does it like range from student to student?
Shirley Doe: Everybody learns the real basics of wrestling. I’m a big believer in I won’t teach anybody to hit the ropes or anything until they’ve learned how to actually wrestle. And how to do — I don’t teach students running the ropes until right about maybe they’re in for about a year — eight months to a year. Because I want guys to be able to wrestle a whole match and actually be able to look like they’re solid wrestlers before they start adding flash. Then at that point whatever guys really want to learn, like if someone’s like, “Well, I really want to do some Lucha stuff,” like I have a halfway decent background in it and I can show them how to do the arm drags and some of the quicker stuff like, but when it comes to flying we have guys that are a million times better flyers than me. And that’s when they kind of come in and they teach those guys. And then we’ve been really lucky in that everybody’s really decent in our promotion where they’ll kind of help you out. Like, “Hey, I’ve got this move I want to try” you know that’s where I think wrestling is fun when you get to that point where you know all your moves and you know all the basics, now its time to just start bringing it out, “Wow, I always wanted to this, let’s try this,” I mean I still do that now.
Daniel Johnson: Regarding the connection between the Coalition of Competition and IWC, is there any kind of relationship that Coalition of Competition people that are trained at that area, are likely to work for IWC or is there any relation between those two?
Shirley Doe: Basically, it is the IWC School. I've always wanted to keep it separate, just on my own. Just because that way I don't want guys to feel that they have to work for IWC or you know they're forced to work there. But they can pretty much work wherever they want, whenever they're ready to go. I would prefer they work for IWC because it's a decent company and they take pretty good care of their guys. But that way, a lot of time in wrestling, there's a lot of politics and stuff so I try to keep it separate so that way guys will never get into that at that point.
Daniel Johnson: Regarding training, aside from Benson Lee, another wrestler who trained you as you mentioned before was Dory Funk Jr. What is the most important lesson you learned from Dory Funk Jr.?
Shirley Doe: Just to be comfortable in wrestling. Like before, actually it’s funny before he said it to me I never thought of it like that, but basically whenever you’re in the ring, the ring should be your second home so you should really kind of never be nervous there. You should just be like, “okay cool,” you know its easy and before every time I was in a match I would be freaking out, even when I was in the ring and now it’s you know a lot easier for me. So I really appreciate that. And just you know just generally how to carry myself and how to be more professional, which he’s amazing at doing that.
Daniel Johnson: Do you have any particular memories of Dory Funk Jr. as a wrestler that stand out for you?
Shirley Doe: I was kind of young, so the stuff I really saw him at was whenever the Funk brothers did their WWE run. But I remember reading a lot of stuff in the magazines about him and I’ve gone back and I have a lot of tapes of him, especially the Japanese stuff. So like you know the finals of the tag leagues, I think ’78 when him and Terry Funk, Abby and I can’t remember, who they fought is. When they fought Brody and Snuka that’s what it is and Hansen does his run-in to introduce himself to All Japan. Like, I’ve watched all those tag matches a million times during like the Sheik and Abby against the Funks and stuff like that. I love that history. Like All Japan at that time in mid-70s it’s just like amazing stuff to watch.
Daniel Johnson: Stepping a bit away from wrestling, in your online live journal, you frequently reference comic book characters. Who is your favorite comic book character and why?
Shirley Doe: Not counting the one’s that I’ve worked on [Laughs]. I’m actually going to have a comic coming out next month. So if not then probably like Dr. Fate or Nick Fury, I have a big affinity for characters that nobody gives a shit about.
Daniel Johnson: Are you more into underground comic books or DC and Marvel, do you still like read a lot of those?
Shirley Doe: You know I’m kind of into everything. I’m a big superhero geek. So I read a lot of superhero comics still, but I’ll read almost any comic. Like, you know I’m a big fan of just whatever, but my comic that is coming out is very superhero, but also kind of underground because there’s a lot of colorful language and violence. That’s a nice way of saying it.
Daniel Johnson: Have any comic book characters influenced your persona as Shirley Doe and if so to what extent?
Shirley Doe: Yeah, yeah. I think wrestling is totally a comic book. It’s just, you know what I mean? You kind of have to think of it as good and evil and stuff like that. So yeah I can’t really pick out anyone’s particularly, but yeah definitely. I mean I always look at, when I’m in the ring as it kind of being a live-action comic book.
Daniel Johnson: Getting back to wrestling, in IWC, Mick Foley refereed matches you were involved in with Sebastian Dark and Eric Xtasy, respectively. Outside of these incidences, what is your favorite Mick Foley moment?
Shirley Doe: There’s too many for me to think of, I really like his match against Sting from Beach Brawl and just anything like I’ve kind of taken a lot of stuff from him so I can’t really boil it down to one moment.
Daniel Johnson: Recently Kurt Angle wrestled Samoa Joe in what was billed by NWA: TNA as a dream match, as a fan are there any dream matches that have yet to take place that you would like to see occur?
Shirley Doe: Let me think. Really no, I’m just kind of like, its been really hard, especially in Japan over the last couple of years because all these dream matches have happened you know what I mean? So I currently don’t have any now. Like I have my personal ones is to wrestle Kintaro Kanemura and a few other guys in Japan, but not really, I don’t have a lot.
Daniel Johnson: Regarding hardcore matches, what was the first incident you were in, where you participated in a hardcore match?
Shirley Doe: Oh man, I don’t even know. Probably like in my, I think my first year I had a baseball bat match and I did like, what do you call it? A fire in that match too like I lit my hand on fire, arm on fire and clotheslined a guy. Bunch of other stuff, so it was probably within my first year, which is that I would discourage any of my students today from doing, but I didn’t know any better when I was younger.
Daniel Johnson: Regarding hardcore matches, earlier you mentioned that like your style has kind of changed more from being a wrestler to being more of a brawler. Did you go into wrestling looking to be more of a technical wrestler or did you always have intentions of being kind of like a hardcore wrestler or a brawler?
Shirley Doe: No, you know what? I kind of always realized I would be, probably be more of a hardcore guy, because especially the matches I remember watching when I was a kid were totally like the Brody and Abdullah matches from Texas where they went all through the crowd and you know brawled and hit each other while looking for stuff and that’s kind of like what I always saw as being wrestling. And so I probably figured that I would always do stuff like that. Plus I had seen enough of Cactus’s matches live by that point that I was totally down with doing that kind of stuff.
Daniel Johnson: What one wrestler, who you have yet to square off against in the ring would you most like to work a match with?
Shirley Doe: Oh man. In the US probably Samoa Joe and probably Kintaro Kanemura in Japan.
Daniel Johnson: This is kind of a hypothetical question, if you were offered contracts tomorrow by the WWE and TNA, respectively of equal value, would you accept either? If so which one? If not, why not?
Shirley Doe: If it was more than I currently make at my current job, yeah, I definitely would. I probably would go with WWE just because they seem to have you know a pretty good farm system. And you know I have a couple of friends down there that are you know doing pretty well and enjoy it. TNA’s cool and it seems to be growing, but it seems for every few steps forward they take there’s about 20 steps back, booking-wise. So that kind of would freak me out I mean, but you know it would be nice either way.
Daniel Johnson: Are there any locations you have yet to wrestle in that you would like to travel to? If so, what are they?
Shirley Doe: Not really. I’ve had a lot of luck of working in a bunch of buildings I wanted to work in. My two biggest buildings I ever wanted to work in were you know ECW Arena and I really wanted to work in Korakuen Hall and I got to do both so I’m really happy about that.
Daniel Johnson: On a live journal entry dated April 10, 2006, you gave several hypothetical setups for entrances at 2006’s IWC Super Indy Tournament show. In that same vein what do you think is the most memorable entrance by a wrestler is of all time?
Shirley Doe: Oh man, I’m a big fan of, like it’s not really a pro wrestler thing, but when Sakruaba was doing the PRIDE entrances. I thought those were pretty cool like when he came out to the Road Warrior’s music or you know he’d have on the Machine’s mask and stuff like that I think that was really cool. I’m a big fan of the Vader entrances in New Japan, with the you know smoke and mask and stuff like that, that was pretty cool and Muta always some pretty when he does the Great Muta character he always has some pretty wild entrances now.
Daniel Johnson: Entrances are often based on the gimmick that a wrestler is using. Are there any gimmicks that have yet to be performed by a wrestler that you would like to see performed? If so what is this gimmick or gimmicks?
Shirley Doe: Nah, it’s funny because I was just talking about that with my students the other day, but not a lot of people really do gimmicks today, especially on the indy scene and I kind of would like to see more people overall think of gimmicks. I saw a kid last weekend do a gimmick where he was a ‘50’s greaser, which I thought was kind of funny. You know because, who would think of doing that on the indys? So I thought that was kind of cool. But you know a lot of people just want to be Steve Austin now. You know they just want to be themselves and come out with a t-shirt on. It’s like you know? I tend to at least go the extra mile and not be myself, totally myself when I’m out there.
Daniel Johnson: Do you think that there are any misconceptions about how gimmicks are used?
Shirley Doe: Yeah, I’d say so. I think some people just think the gimmick ends like the minute they get in the ring and start wrestling. You know to me it’s like you should be in character the whole time your behind the curtain, I mean from the curtain out. You know what I mean? The whole time and just work it into your match. Like that’s my opinion. I think too many people just think, “Well this is who I am,” and never really think through their gimmick at all.
Daniel Johnson: What are some memorable gimmicks you remember as a fan growing up?
Shirley Doe: I kind of blocked out that they had Memphis wrestling so a lot of the weird characters that would wrestle Jerry Lawler for a week, that kind of stuff. I was just talking to somebody about this the other day, I really liked Big Bossman a lot because I thought it was kind of a natural thing that you know everybody hates or a lot of people don't like cops and you know especially like prison guards are always seen as just asses. So I thought that was a good gimmick and plus, he really became a better worker as he had the gimmick. So I thought that was cool.
Daniel Johnson: On your official website, www.shirleydoe.com, some of the last words that you have in your bio are, "If you hate me, I've done my job. Too many heels want the fans to applaud them for their fancy moves." What do you think the best techniques are that wrestlers can use to keep heels, heels and faces, faces?
Shirley Doe: I think Christopher Daniels is awesome at that whenever you see him work as a heel because his moves are just amazingly graceful. And I think the thing that's cool is just the way he carries himself after he does it. It's the look in his face that says, "I can do this and you can't." I think that's really cool. So many people whenever they come back after a match, whenever they want to ask you how their match is you know, they say, "How's my match?" I'm like, "It's okay. You know you really didn't do anything with the crowd," and they're like, "Yeah, but did you hear them cheer when I did this move," and I'm like, "You're a bad guy. You're a heel. You shouldn't care if they cheer or not for a big move. If they did, then you took away from what the faces should be doing in the match."
Daniel Johnson: Regarding like heels and faces again, how have you transitioned from heel to face and face to heel when it's necessary to make a transition?
Shirley Doe: I think naturally it's much, much easier for me to be a heel. Not that that's my personality, but just when I think about wrestling, the way I put a match together. It's just much simpler for me to be a heel in there, just how I carry myself, and the stuff that I do in a match. So as a face, it was more that there are a lot of weird little tricks to being a heel and whenever someone says that, I'm like, "Oh, that's not true," but then when you watch wrestling, it is. Like the heel always throws the first punch, the heel's the first one to strike, and stuff like that. As a face, I felt like I wasn't myself because my tendency in a match is to just go out and start swinging right away so it's a lot easier being a heel.
Daniel Johnson: Who do you think was the best overall used wrestler in the wrestling industry in 2006?
Shirley Doe: I don't know. I think they were doing something cool with Punk at first in ECW of what I saw, but I saw something he did with Bob Holly the other night, you know where they had some submission set or something. I think, once they start making someone look stupid, then it's bad. I think Joe in TNA, from what I've read...they've done a decent job with him. I wouldn't have had him lose to Kurt Angle, even though it's Kurt Angle, right away, but what do I know?
Daniel Johnson: Kind of on the opposite side of this, are there any wrestlers you'd like to see utilized more?
Shirley Doe: I don't know. It's really hard because I'm not like the best person to ask about American guys. I'd like to see Hero get a job working for a big fed. I think that would be cool. I'm glad Claudio is going to Deep South or something pretty soon. Wherever he does end up, I think that's great because he's really good.
Daniel Johnson: Regarding Japan, what was the one single biggest change you noticed between wrestling in the United States and going over to Japan?
Shirley Doe: The crowd is pretty knowledgeable, which everybody kind of said that the Japanese fans are going to be a lot more knowledgeable, but on the other hand, just that it's a little harder in-ring because you're obviously wrestling someone that speaks a completely different language than you so that kind of takes a little time to get used to. But otherwise, I mean there wasn't a lot of difference. I always tried to work with a lot of people and say, "Oh, they work a lot tighter than us or a lot stiffer," and I've always tried to work as close to that style as I could so it wasn't anything different to me. But it's just weird because you would not know what was going on until you were in the ring with someone because I had a glass and light tube barbwire match and I didn't even know it was going to be that until I was on my way to the ring and I saw the four sides of the ring all lit up and I was like, "Ah, okay. I guess this is what we're doing," so you know it was a surprise.
Daniel Johnson: What Japanese promotion, either that you worked for or have yet to work for, do you feel you'd fit best in?
Shirley Doe: Probably if the real FMW was around, probably that. I had a really good time working for WMF. Probably like ZERO1 or probably like Apache; one of the more hardcore promotions. Big Japan or something like that I'd probably fit in pretty well in. I had a good time in WMF though. I mean, it was real easy and I had a lot of friends there. I got treated really well and especially the last tour that I did with them when I worked Balls and I was with the title, I had a great time. That was just a fun trip overall. There was really nothing bad about that one. First time I went over, it was kind of rough just because there was a lot of travel.
Daniel Johnson: Is there anything that Japanese wrestling has to offer that you could see yourself doing, but have yet to accomplish and would like to do?
Shirley Doe: Nah, I'm pretty happy with where I've been at in wrestling so I'm pretty happy.
Daniel Johnson: In your opinion what was the best match of the year for you?
Shirley Doe: For my matches, I really liked the cage match that we did for the blow off for the Unholy Alliance/IWC Feud. That was really fun. It all worked out really easy and everybody was in at the right time and it was just awesome and yeah, that's probably it. I felt like everything tended to get better. I really enjoyed my match with Ricky Reyes last month too. It was the first time we had ever worked with each other and I think that it went really smooth. I enjoyed working Low Ki the two or three times I got to work with him too.
Daniel Johnson: Are there any other wrestlers that you've worked with already, but would like to work with again for possibly an extended program?
Shirley Doe: Yeah, definitely Low Ki. I'd like to do more with him just because we've done a few tags with each other and a few run-ins back & forth and really haven't had a singles match and I'm kind of looking forward to that. I guess its going to happen in the New Year so I think that will be cool. Because we're kind of like a total conflict in styles, which is cool. You know, he's a striker, but super technical and I'm kind of like not super technical and just punch people so it should be pretty interesting.
Daniel Johnson: Looking back at 2006, what will you remember most about the year?
Shirley Doe: Just that it was a real good year overall, wrestling-wise. There's a couple of years in wrestling where I didn't enjoy any of my matches and this year I can say pretty much that I enjoyed almost all of my matches, which is hard because especially with as big as our locker room gets, trying to concentrate on your match and know what you're doing and make sure everyone else knows what they're doing. That's how it usually holds you back from having fun, but I'd say, especially in the last two months, I've been having a lot of fun.
Daniel Johnson: What plans do you have for 2007?
Shirley Doe: Just to see how long my body can hold out. My knees have kind of been bad for a couple of years, but it's not horrible. So as long as I can hold out and stay healthy, I'd like to go to Japan two or three more times and just keep doing that. And just enjoying teaching students and seeing my students you know debut.
Daniel Johnson: Lastly, is there anything you would like to add?
Shirley Doe: Nah, you're pretty thorough so it's cool.
Daniel Johnson: Okay, thank you very much for the interview again.
Shirley Doe: Oh yeah, sure no problem. I hope it was fun.
Daniel Johnson: Oh yeah, it was I learned a lot.
Shirley Doe: [Laughs] Cool.
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